Driver trouble makes angry mobile owners rush castle HTC with burning torches
We're seeing a serious flow of tips from people upset with supposed performance issues on a good pile of HTC's newest sets. Handsets like the HTC TyTN II, Touch Dual, Touch Cruise, Wings, Titan, Vogue, Libra, and Iris are all apparently affected by underperforming video drivers which in turn slow the device significantly. The list -- and length -- of threads covering this is snow-balling at the well known XDA-Developers forum pages, as is talk of class-action suits. A site has now been set up called HTCClassAction to help people sort through all the buzz and get the nitty gritty details, so hit the read link if you're inspired to learn more. Of course we'll hopefully hear something official from HTC on this in the near term and will be sure to fill you in as we do.[Thanks to everyone who sent this in]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
GL @ Jan 19th 2008 6:58PM
This is great news to finally get some coverage. Hopefully potential buyers of these models will know the whole story before they make their final decision.
storino03 @ Jan 19th 2008 7:26PM
Looking forward to a resolution by HTC.
--James
Big Sam @ Jan 19th 2008 8:28PM
Hope this finally gets the attention it deserves
ajfloridian @ Jan 19th 2008 9:16PM
Its freakin about time guys.. I'm very excited to see a highly reputed blog bringing this issue in the forefront.
If only now all of the other blogs also take the responsibility to follow suit we're sure to see some results.
Just come to think of it.. there are companies like Apple who is working on maximizing their software engine to deliver for the lack of hardware in the form on cell phone triangulation to compensate for a GPS chip... and in this case, the darn Qualcomm chips have the ATI uber advanced GUI engine built into it so WHY.. JUST WHY.. does someone not choose to include s/w for it is gotta be a bigger mystery than Area 51.
Geeks and bloggers of world... I hereby ask you to stand united in this quest. OK.. i'll tone it down. Just keep doing your bit of posting more about this issue and rest will come itself.
AJ
Navi Thach @ Jan 20th 2008 3:45AM
The problem with Qualcomm IMO is all the good stuff they make goes to Verizon by way of LG. HTC should have stayed with Marvell's XScale system, with 3rd party baseband. I really wish Qualcomm gets bankrupted by the Broadcom judgements.
E71 @ Jan 20th 2008 7:39AM
@Navi
I don't think it's an issue with Qualcomm's chipset. Last I heard, there are devices out there that aren't manufactured by HTC, that have the 7200 Qualcomm chipset and aren't under-performing.
periks19 @ Jan 19th 2008 9:27PM
Thats true a new mogul like 3 month olds wifi stoped working and got another mogul and this one is already messing up it stops reading the sd card when playing music and musics stops playing so i have to take out the card and put it back in. Ohh they both were running version 2.17
BChau @ Jan 19th 2008 9:38PM
Shouldn't it be the responsibility of Qualcomm who make the chip to provide the driver for use with the chip? Shouldn't the complaint be directed at Qualcomm?
Dave @ Jan 19th 2008 10:05PM
wrong, because HTC has to purchase the license for the SDK for the drivers from Qualcomm for each type of device (since a TyTn II is different from a Polaris Cruise even though they use the same chipset), which apparently they figured they didn't need and hoped no one would notice the shitty, shitty playback. Boy were they wrong. And if youre asking why they would be so cheap and do this its because to get the development pack for the drivers from Qualcomm it costs somewhere between 80-100k per license (meaning per device they develop it for), and I guess HTC is really just that cheap.
Dave @ Jan 19th 2008 10:06PM
also BChau, no offense but you sound like a huge HTC troll doing damage control.
fyreblazer @ Jan 20th 2008 11:59PM
@ Dave
No he doesn't. He asked a legitimate question. If you're computer has video problems, do you go to Microsoft, the OEM or or the video card makers?
And before you say anything about me, I signed the petition about a month ago.
NuShrike @ Jan 21st 2008 4:58AM
@ Dave: No matter how expensive the licenses were, HTC should've paid for them. Why? because they committed to the Qualcomm's chips. Has any hardware manufacturer ever been forgiven when they go halfway on their hardware? Remember the Intel divider bug?
Technically Qualcomm burned HTC twice here. First selling HTC an "awesome" chip design with power-saving algorithms that infringed on Broadcom's IP therefore delaying a slew of Qualcomm device releases for HTC. Next, overcharging HTC for the drivers causing HTC to go half-assed because they've already got locked in. HTC, you really should've avoided Q's chips.
Blame the Q.
kludge @ Jan 19th 2008 11:33PM
The site mentioned in this article:
http://www.htcclassaction.org
Sean Cooper @ Jan 19th 2008 11:41PM
Yes, as I linked to in the read link and through the picture.
Jon Briggs @ Jan 19th 2008 11:42PM
BChau is and avbious HTC plant. Is there anyone here that does not understand that this is a 100% HTC issue.
PSM @ Jan 20th 2008 12:06AM
Thanks for covering this. I really like my Tilt, but the video performance, just redrawing the screen, is awful for a device with those specs. I hope Engadget can put some pressure on HTC to take this seriously and let us know what's going on.
Lord John Whorfin @ Jan 20th 2008 4:49AM
Simple: HTC + windows mobile = new iPhone customer.
Xultar @ Jan 20th 2008 9:32AM
You are right about that. My friend has a 8525 that bricked all by itself. He's all iPhone now.
Navi Thach @ Jan 20th 2008 3:10PM
or BlackBerry user...
Ron Smeets @ Jan 20th 2008 9:42AM
HTC has responded to some customers with this problem:
See the first comment to this posting on my blog )blog is in Dutch, comment in English):
http://www.mobilecowboys.nl/nieuws/6548
Xultar @ Jan 20th 2008 3:29PM
That whole thing is a bunch of crap.
I'm sure they can reproduce the error themselves if they'd just get off their lazy asses.
Just sayin.
Dave @ Jan 20th 2008 4:57PM
ron, thats an old ass generic answer they used to send people, now they actually ask for a specific example, the ROM version youre using, IMEI, etc. Honestly 6 months is way too long for them to not have a fix for this, and I will most certainly think twice before buying an HTC device ever again.
Greatheart @ Jan 23rd 2008 5:49PM
HTC's response is "SCREW YOU!!!! AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, THEN BUY ANOTHER PHONE ... WERE NOT UPGRADING ANYTHING BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAVE YOUR MONEY - SUCKA !!!!!!!!!!!
Dave @ Jan 20th 2008 11:44AM
finally, after all my harassment, I have my day. :)
JAmerican @ Jan 20th 2008 12:56PM
The fact that HTC devices still have 2.8" screens shows that they became to power hungry and cheap. They should have been upgraded their devices to 3" screens. They need some competition. That's their problem. The iPhone doesn't phase them much it seems due to they have like 99% of the WM market and other companies depend on them to make their device as well. HTC is basically Standard Oil. I really hate it when companies that face no competition become arrogant and take advantage of their customers.
dude @ Jan 22nd 2008 6:50PM
If the Specs on the Samsung i900 are high then HTC will have to worry. The features on the samsung are like a wish list.
Bobaka @ Jan 20th 2008 10:48PM
oh please. what a bunch of hooey. i have one. it works fine. whine snivel snivel. go buy a frickin iphone if you like them so much.
DaVince @ Jan 21st 2008 11:30AM
It works fine for someone with low standards such as you. If you're eyes can't see the difference between a good performing device and the latest HTC ones.. well go see an opthalmologist or something.
Just to be clear. We are not iPhone fans.
Dave @ Jan 21st 2008 11:42AM
and bobaka and BChau are HTC trolls. Nice. Rather than fix the problem or officially fix the problem they send trolls into blogs. Classy
Moco Binson @ Jan 23rd 2008 6:58AM
Finally, Engadget posts a topic on this issue. You have my respect back (thought it would have been nice on the main site and not just the mobile). Now lets see how many other site's grow the balls to follow suit.
And to Bobaka you obviously are a troll OR aren't an advanced user (in which case you should switch to the iPhone). Anyone who engages in touchscreen based graphics application, touchscreen based gaming and emulation, even using tom-tom WILL encounter this problem to the extent it renders said devices almost unusable. You want some imperical evidence? What's your response to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vn6DAq5q6M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xeb8-m5opDA
And there are many more video examples to be found online. Wise man say: "look before you leap".
NuShrike, I blame HTC and non other. Their inner dealings with Qualcomm are no business of mine, what concerns me is that HTC (not Q) put out all these products KNOWING of this deficiency and summarily denied it's existence until the gang over at XDA Devs badgered them repeatedly and began pushing for greater awareness so people wouldn't make the same mistake many of us made in purchasing defective/deficient $700+ product OR getting them to provide a fix.
GSLEON3 @ Jan 22nd 2008 1:30PM
So, what do we believe? I sent an email to AT&T & HTC USA statintg my intent to return 300 Tilts & take my business to Samsung & Verizon. The respone I got was initially "We know about it, but don't know what we can do". After replying with a carpet bomb tyrade response email, a certain VP (J.B.M.) responded with a new line "we are working on a fix & believe it will be ready for release somtime before April".
But now I see a response from HTC saying, "We don't use the ATI & aren't fixing anything".
NOW HEAR THIS:
I say we need to somehow get together an HTC Email Hit List. If we can get email addresses of the Execs & make them focus their time on this problem it will SERIOUSLY impact their efficiency, use up their valuable time & truly make a difference.
The people we really need to bomb with emails are the ones who's time realy matter.
We need phone numbers (Direct) & email addresses for the people whom matter. If you can supply any of theser do so annonymously. I will be using several special databases to see if I can get any of this info as well.
LOOK OUT HTC YOUR ON THE HIT LIST (EMAIL HIT LIST)
For the USA:
Mark J. Baker, Senior Director, Enterprise Business Unit, Americas
David Kou, Director, Business Development, CDMA
Waiman Lam, Controller
Hsiao-Wen Lin, Director of Engineering
Jason B. Mackenzie, Vice President of Sales and Marketing
David Smith, Director of Marketing
Chris Stovall, Executive Director, National Accounts
Wyatt Whaley, Executive Director, National Accounts
For Europe:
Peter Chou, CEO and President HTC Corp.
Florian Seiche, Vice President HTC Europe Co. Ltd.
Kevin Chen, Executive Director HTC EMEA Channel
Philip Blair, Product Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.
Peter Frolund, Account Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.
Frdric Tassy, Account Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.
Lars Weisswange, Account Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.
Oliver Schulte, Finance Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.
Peter Chiang, Account Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.
Diane Studman, Head of European Marketing HTC Europe Co. Ltd.
Daniele De Grandis, Country Manager, Italy HTC Europe Co. Ltd.
These are the people at HTC whose time matter. Their lost minutes equal lost millions for HTC. Lets see what we can find & hit these people where it hurts (In their productivity & their pocket book)
Dave @ Jan 22nd 2008 5:07PM
agreed...some one get these and I can assure you everyone on XDA-Devs will email the shit outta them till their servers cry.
Moco Binson @ Jan 23rd 2008 7:16AM
A few more videos of what Bobaka claims is "hooey". You obviously don't really own one or are a troll. Else you just use it to make phonecalls, period.
Tom-Tom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJWAu6IRe4
GDI Drawing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgfL227gmik
Watching a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1shykuNIJK4
Moco Binson @ Jan 23rd 2008 7:24AM
More.
Good example- Quake, an RPG, Genesis Emulator:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL8uq4FtduY
BEST EXAMPLE- web browsing on the Kaiser versus a Qtek voyager (a smartphone released in 2003 that still outperforms the Kasier):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qbaDLzOU_Y
Still waiting for your response Bobaka.
NuShrike @ Jan 23rd 2008 2:05PM
I'm a little suspect of the Qtek vs Kaiser video. My Kaiser is laggy, but not that laggy. What's the page url so I can replicate it for myself?
Moco Binson @ Jan 23rd 2008 7:28AM
Seriously, check that last link. As the poster points out, how does a 5 year old device running on a "Ti-Omap 132Mhz perform better than the Qualcomm 7200 400Mhz" Tytn II/Tilt/Vario III???? Bobaka???
Moco Binson @ Jan 23rd 2008 11:48AM
Don't know about the original Touch but it affects all the new ones running on the Q chip (Kaiser/Tytn II/Vario III/Tilt and the Dual and Cruise).
Roger @ Jan 23rd 2008 4:44PM
Does this problem affect the Sprint HTC Touch?
dude @ Feb 4th 2008 2:34AM
i seriously wanted to buy a htc kaiser since the specs are so good... i have the money and my current hp contract ending soon.
then, after reading the response of htc on http://www.htcclassaction.org/responses.php#update_20080129_1_1, i think im gonna give any products this company produced, and will produce in the future, a miss.
including h/w without the drivers in the hp... having great specs but no s/w to support the h/w..
wat a bloody joke.
and its not even funny, considering how expensive the hp is.
"In addition to making sure the required hardware is present, unlocking extended capabilities of chipsets like the MSM 7xxx requires in-depth and time consuming software development, complicated licensing negotiations, potential intellectual property negotiations, added licensing fees, and in the case of devices that are sold through operators, the desire of the operator to include the additional functionality. To make an informed decision about which handset suits them best, consumers should look at the product specification itself instead of using the underlying chipset specifications to define what the product could potentially become. "
theres a saying in the Army...
"Dont make your problem my f---ing problem!"
kaiser soze @ Mar 15th 2008 9:39PM
I thought it is not hardware related issue and I did a Kaiser hard reset
http://www.hardreset.eu/htc_kaiser_tytn_ii_p4550_hard_reset_soft_reset_en.html
I am very sad about it...